Funny how the only people defending it in this thread were angry Saints fans.
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46 replies to this topic
#2
paulitik
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Posted 14 April 2012 - 06:58 PM
No one plays the victim card like a Saints fan. They used the victim card for 3 years forcing the NFL to completely overlook and array of scandals involving fraud, drugs, and organized assault via an illegal bounty program, then as soon as they forced the NFL's hand, "this is unfair! Everyone else is doing it! This is a conspiracy!". It's tired.
#3
SkiFalcon
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Posted 14 April 2012 - 06:59 PM
I dont wanna say it or even think it, but the wounded dog always scares me.. They may have a good year just cause they have so much incentive. They wont lay down.
#4
ChickenBiscuit
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Posted 14 April 2012 - 07:07 PM
SkiFalcon, on 14 April 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:
I dont wanna say it or even think it, but the wounded dog always scares me.. They may have a good year just cause they have so much incentive. They wont lay down.
Not to say they're no longer good, but at this point, I'd give us the upper hand. They're not a wounded dog, they're a self-stricken 16 year old emo cutter girl.
#5
paulitik
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Posted 14 April 2012 - 07:19 PM
I think they'll possibly be a 9-7, 10-6 team. We just need to grow a sack and freaking attack, instead of letting them dictate everything. Smitty gets so timid against the teams we should be trying to destroy. The man seems to have no sense of revenge.
#6
Blank's Apprentice
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Posted 14 April 2012 - 07:50 PM
They couldn't pull it out last year w the team they had!!! Why does everyone assume that theyll be better?
#7
saints4life28
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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:02 PM
We're not all in denial. I don't like the bounty system and think the league did what it had to do. Something should have been done after being told to stop it. And I think Gregg Williams is a sack of ****.
I also believe it goes on in every locker room to some degree, which is why theres not as many pissed off players as there are pissed off fans (even your own Roddy White kind of shrugged it off). But by no means do I think that that's an excuse not to be punished. While there are a lot of good fans on forums and what not, the internet seems to bring out the worst in fan bases.
I can honestly say, living in New Orleans, that I haven't talked to a single Saints fan that wasn't disgusted at Gregg Williams and the bounty system itself. You just have a sense, as a fan, that you have to stick up for your team. I'm sure the sentiment wouldn't be too different if it was the Falcons.
I also believe it goes on in every locker room to some degree, which is why theres not as many pissed off players as there are pissed off fans (even your own Roddy White kind of shrugged it off). But by no means do I think that that's an excuse not to be punished. While there are a lot of good fans on forums and what not, the internet seems to bring out the worst in fan bases.
I can honestly say, living in New Orleans, that I haven't talked to a single Saints fan that wasn't disgusted at Gregg Williams and the bounty system itself. You just have a sense, as a fan, that you have to stick up for your team. I'm sure the sentiment wouldn't be too different if it was the Falcons.
#8
Falcons 'til Death
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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:22 PM
saints4life28, on 14 April 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:
We're not all in denial. I don't like the bounty system and think the league did what it had to do. Something should have been done after being told to stop it. And I think Gregg Williams is a sack of ****.
I also believe it goes on in every locker room to some degree, which is why theres not as many pissed off players as there are pissed off fans (even your own Roddy White kind of shrugged it off). But by no means do I think that that's an excuse not to be punished. While there are a lot of good fans on forums and what not, the internet seems to bring out the worst in fan bases.
I can honestly say, living in New Orleans, that I haven't talked to a single Saints fan that wasn't disgusted at Gregg Williams and the bounty system itself. You just have a sense, as a fan, that you have to stick up for your team. I'm sure the sentiment wouldn't be too different if it was the Falcons.
I also believe it goes on in every locker room to some degree, which is why theres not as many pissed off players as there are pissed off fans (even your own Roddy White kind of shrugged it off). But by no means do I think that that's an excuse not to be punished. While there are a lot of good fans on forums and what not, the internet seems to bring out the worst in fan bases.
I can honestly say, living in New Orleans, that I haven't talked to a single Saints fan that wasn't disgusted at Gregg Williams and the bounty system itself. You just have a sense, as a fan, that you have to stick up for your team. I'm sure the sentiment wouldn't be too different if it was the Falcons.
Intially we may defend our coaches but after the shock wears off we as a fanbase would've turned on them , especially if there's damming evidence . You seem to be a sensible fan , not like the arrogant bandwagon variety that's dragging your fanbase thru the mud .
#9
bradael
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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:24 PM
The "denial" in regards to the bounty scandal is towards the use of the term "bounty".... not the player incentives as a whole, which still means they should have been punished accordingly for being caught. The evidence on the field speaks for itself. From 2009-2011, 7 teams received more roughing penalties. 19 teams were fined more for illegal hits in 2009 while 11 more were fined for illegal hits in 2010. 0 offensive players were carted off the field over that three year span (so much for paying for "cart-offs"). 18 total injuries to offensive players over that span as well. You can compare that to the 29 that Atlanta caused.
And Greg Williams is a nut, but it doesn't make him a criminal. The "evidence" of his speech vs the 49ers still produced 0 illegal hits and 0 injuries to the 49ers' offensive players. This is also where the NFL is running into an issue with player penalties on this scandal. Considering that the NFL said this before the Super Bowl:
It's going to be hard for Goodell to have leverage for player suspensions when the NFLPA is backing the players. Payton, Loomis, Williams, and Vitt had no leverage because they're not backed by a union. Their contracts allow Goodell to do whatever he wants. However, Goodell is still going to want to punish the players as harsh as possible, because if you suspend coaches & management for 46+ games but the players for 0 games for allegedly something that happened on the field, then that will raise a lot of eyebrows. He's prepared for this already though by making a big deal about the Saints' management lying/covering up this issue... as well as writing Gregg Williams' apology statement that kept using the word "we" as well as stating "we knew it was wrong and we kept doing it".
It's foolish to think Brees won't be signed by the start of the season. Saints won't make any movement on the contract until they hear about any possible player suspensions. If Vilma is suspended, they get a good portion of money back on the salary cap. If he's not suspended, then they can release Shanle and get roughly 2 million back on the cap to use in Drew's contract.
And Payton didn't call plays most of last year. How did that work out. 37 points a game with Pete Carmichael calling plays, including 42+ points in 6 of 12 games. They'll be fine so long as Drew is still on the field. Sure, they won't be as good as last year, but when you break nearly every record in the book, it's to be expected that there will be a drop off. They'll be #1 in total offense yet again though. They've been #1 four of the last six years.
The pass D has still ranked near the top of the league over the last three years in terms of passer rating allowed. The main drop off last year was due to the lack of INTs, even though they were near the top of the league in dropped INTs and pass deflections. They still ranked near the top in completion % allowed (9), yards per attempt (14), and 3rd down % (5). Atlanta ranked 17, 16, and 29... but they can actually catch. Saints LBs also were terrible in coverage last year... the secondary was very good. Shanle/Dunbar/Casillas were awful for the most part... which is why they brought in three new LBs.
Also, Robert Meachem IMO is better than most people think. However, in the Saints' system, he's replaceable because he didn't get as much playing time as he would on most teams. He was the Saints #3 WR target last year and #6 overall. He was primarily used as just a vertical threat. His departure just means more playing time for Devery Henderson and Joe Morgan.
Last year's team was better than the 2009 team, but the 2009 team won it all. That's the way it goes sometimes. And 13-3 is good enough for the #1 seed most years... 13-3 wasn't even good enough for a bye for the Saints.
And Greg Williams is a nut, but it doesn't make him a criminal. The "evidence" of his speech vs the 49ers still produced 0 illegal hits and 0 injuries to the 49ers' offensive players. This is also where the NFL is running into an issue with player penalties on this scandal. Considering that the NFL said this before the Super Bowl:
Quote
“Players are held accountable for their actions on the field,” NFL spokesman Greg Aiello told The Star-Ledger in an e-mail. “There were no illegal hits to the head or neck area against Kyle Williams on Sunday. There was no conduct by the Giants of any kind that would suggest an effort to injure Kyle Williams in any way.”
It's going to be hard for Goodell to have leverage for player suspensions when the NFLPA is backing the players. Payton, Loomis, Williams, and Vitt had no leverage because they're not backed by a union. Their contracts allow Goodell to do whatever he wants. However, Goodell is still going to want to punish the players as harsh as possible, because if you suspend coaches & management for 46+ games but the players for 0 games for allegedly something that happened on the field, then that will raise a lot of eyebrows. He's prepared for this already though by making a big deal about the Saints' management lying/covering up this issue... as well as writing Gregg Williams' apology statement that kept using the word "we" as well as stating "we knew it was wrong and we kept doing it".
ChickenBiscuit, on 14 April 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:
Drew Brees isn't on their roster, Sean Payton won't be calling the plays, Joe Vitt won't even be coaching until week 7, the OL coach is their coach for the first 6 weeks, their pass defense is still going to be horrendous, and they lost Robert Meachem.
Not to say they're no longer good, but at this point, I'd give us the upper hand. They're not a wounded dog, they're a self-stricken 16 year old emo cutter girl.
Not to say they're no longer good, but at this point, I'd give us the upper hand. They're not a wounded dog, they're a self-stricken 16 year old emo cutter girl.
It's foolish to think Brees won't be signed by the start of the season. Saints won't make any movement on the contract until they hear about any possible player suspensions. If Vilma is suspended, they get a good portion of money back on the salary cap. If he's not suspended, then they can release Shanle and get roughly 2 million back on the cap to use in Drew's contract.
And Payton didn't call plays most of last year. How did that work out. 37 points a game with Pete Carmichael calling plays, including 42+ points in 6 of 12 games. They'll be fine so long as Drew is still on the field. Sure, they won't be as good as last year, but when you break nearly every record in the book, it's to be expected that there will be a drop off. They'll be #1 in total offense yet again though. They've been #1 four of the last six years.
The pass D has still ranked near the top of the league over the last three years in terms of passer rating allowed. The main drop off last year was due to the lack of INTs, even though they were near the top of the league in dropped INTs and pass deflections. They still ranked near the top in completion % allowed (9), yards per attempt (14), and 3rd down % (5). Atlanta ranked 17, 16, and 29... but they can actually catch. Saints LBs also were terrible in coverage last year... the secondary was very good. Shanle/Dunbar/Casillas were awful for the most part... which is why they brought in three new LBs.
Also, Robert Meachem IMO is better than most people think. However, in the Saints' system, he's replaceable because he didn't get as much playing time as he would on most teams. He was the Saints #3 WR target last year and #6 overall. He was primarily used as just a vertical threat. His departure just means more playing time for Devery Henderson and Joe Morgan.
DaDirtyBirdGetsda1stWerm, on 14 April 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:
They couldn't pull it out last year w the team they had!!! Why does everyone assume that theyll be better?
Last year's team was better than the 2009 team, but the 2009 team won it all. That's the way it goes sometimes. And 13-3 is good enough for the #1 seed most years... 13-3 wasn't even good enough for a bye for the Saints.
Edited by bradael, 14 April 2012 - 08:25 PM.
#10
paulitik
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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:32 PM
If it were the Falcons, the GM and the Coaches would be fired. The fact that Payton, Vitt , and Loomis still have jobs is an Indictment in Benson and the organization.
Blank was devastated by the Vick controversy. No way he would tolerate this.
Blank was devastated by the Vick controversy. No way he would tolerate this.
#11
Carl927
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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:39 PM
Dear Taints,
Your friendly officiating has gone byebye. You'll now face the same penalties as everyone else. When the home dome refs go goodbye and every game is life or death, every game is a road playoff game.
The taints are the feel-good team no longer. Get a chip on your shoulder. See if it's bigger than the one you've placed on every team you've P.O.ed. I betcha it isn't.
Your friendly officiating has gone byebye. You'll now face the same penalties as everyone else. When the home dome refs go goodbye and every game is life or death, every game is a road playoff game.
The taints are the feel-good team no longer. Get a chip on your shoulder. See if it's bigger than the one you've placed on every team you've P.O.ed. I betcha it isn't.
#12
st.all
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Posted 14 April 2012 - 11:59 PM
DaDirtyBirdGetsda1stWerm, on 14 April 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:
They couldn't pull it out last year w the team they had!!! Why does everyone assume that theyll be better?
better defensive players and a new coach to bring a scheme that works. instead of Williams lunatic blitz every down schemes. Williams did not value linebackers. and I don't know if anyone in the NFL started a linebacker worse than Shanle.
#13
big_D
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Posted 15 April 2012 - 07:44 AM
st.all, on 14 April 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:
better defensive players and a new coach to bring a scheme that works. instead of Williams lunatic blitz every down schemes. Williams did not value linebackers. and I don't know if anyone in the NFL started a linebacker worse than Shanle.
#14
Blank's Apprentice
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Posted 15 April 2012 - 08:26 AM
st.all, on 14 April 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:
better defensive players and a new coach to bring a scheme that works. instead of Williams lunatic blitz every down schemes. Williams did not value linebackers. and I don't know if anyone in the NFL started a linebacker worse than Shanle.
Vilma made up for the lack "thereof." I just can't see anywhere in which the Saints will make an improvement. IMO, y'all had a serviceable defense. With Spag, it may take time to adjust fire due to a complete scheme change. Now I don't want to sound hypocritical bc many falcon fans are riding on Nolan's back for scheme change, etc. however, we will have guys accustomed to playing with eachother (continuity) and aren't facing loosing players and lack of draft. It's just my opninion but I would never expect you to agree bc I see it from a non-partisan view. I can't see the Saints offense being dominate throughout the ENTIRE season either. I do believe that you will come out swinging due to your "chip" but I predict a pitfall midway through the season. Dirty Birds fight and win the division this year!!
#15
saints4life28
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Posted 15 April 2012 - 08:52 AM
DaDirtyBirdGetsda1stWerm, on 15 April 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:
Vilma made up for the lack "thereof." I just can't see anywhere in which the Saints will make an improvement. IMO, y'all had a serviceable defense. With Spag, it may take time to adjust fire due to a complete scheme change. Now I don't want to sound hypocritical bc many falcon fans are riding on Nolan's back for scheme change, etc. however, we will have guys accustomed to playing with eachother (continuity) and aren't facing loosing players and lack of draft. It's just my opninion but I would never expect you to agree bc I see it from a non-partisan view. I can't see the Saints offense being dominate throughout the ENTIRE season either. I do believe that you will come out swinging due to your "chip" but I predict a pitfall midway through the season. Dirty Birds fight and win the division this year!!
Quite frankly Vilma hasn't made up for anything the last few years. I know he's been hurt quite a bit but the man has really lost a step. He's always been undersized but the thing that made him as good as he was was his speed. He could fly from sideline to sideline. He just can't do it anymore. On top of that, he couldn't shed a block to save his life. I mean that literally. If his life depended on him getting off of a block, he wouldnt survive.
I appreciate what Vilma has done for us since he's been here, but our linebacking core has been the weakest link in our sub par defense for a few years now. That's why Saints fans are so excited for the defense this year. That, and we wont have Sir Blitzalot calling plays.
#16
Blank's Apprentice
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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:04 AM
I could be wrong, although I definitely hope THAT I AM NOT. It's just hard for me (unobjectionable) to look at your situation and think that you will make marked improvement. To me, it just seems like you will stay on average of where your team has been the past couple of years or see a slight decline in production. I am not naive to think that you all will totally suck (although I hope that I AM WRONG).
#17
Hazelnut32
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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:58 AM
FYI just about every Saints fan now hates Greg Williams. I thought I'd put that out there in case yall didn't know.
Edit: Also I'm getting the vibe that most players were starting to get tired of Williams' s*** and stopped listening to him. The things that Williams said was awful (at least the ACL and concussion part) but I dont think the players actually listened to that. And before you say that I'm in denial, go watch the SF game. They were actually the dirtier team. They took out Pierre Thomas on a helment to helmet hit. There were some other dirty plays but I cant remember them specifically. The fact that Williams gave the speech he did and how the Saints defense played out there (and really all season) shows that the players really didn't intend on doing all the things he said. I'm not trying to deny what we did though. It was bad and it warrants punishment. Especially the fact that we tried to cover it up.
As for Goodell, I think most Saints fans see him as a hypocrite. He keeps saying he cares about players safety and that's why this is such a big deal. Yet he is considering expanding the regular season to 18 games. And there are helmets that have been developed that will do more to prevent head injuries yet Goodell doesn't want to use them. Why? because they cost more. Saints fans see this as Goodell trying to show the courts that he cares about player safety so they can win law suits in the future. It has nothing to do with player safety.
Edit: Also I'm getting the vibe that most players were starting to get tired of Williams' s*** and stopped listening to him. The things that Williams said was awful (at least the ACL and concussion part) but I dont think the players actually listened to that. And before you say that I'm in denial, go watch the SF game. They were actually the dirtier team. They took out Pierre Thomas on a helment to helmet hit. There were some other dirty plays but I cant remember them specifically. The fact that Williams gave the speech he did and how the Saints defense played out there (and really all season) shows that the players really didn't intend on doing all the things he said. I'm not trying to deny what we did though. It was bad and it warrants punishment. Especially the fact that we tried to cover it up.
As for Goodell, I think most Saints fans see him as a hypocrite. He keeps saying he cares about players safety and that's why this is such a big deal. Yet he is considering expanding the regular season to 18 games. And there are helmets that have been developed that will do more to prevent head injuries yet Goodell doesn't want to use them. Why? because they cost more. Saints fans see this as Goodell trying to show the courts that he cares about player safety so they can win law suits in the future. It has nothing to do with player safety.
Edited by Hazelnut32, 15 April 2012 - 10:10 AM.
#18
Gritz
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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:01 AM
Hazelnut32, on 15 April 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:
FYI just about every Saints fan now hates Greg Williams. I thought I'd put that out there in case yall didn't know.
I feel somewhat bad for the good, hardcore, non-bandwagon Saint fans. I know there are some of those out there somewhere.
Now they know how we felt when we were hit with the twin disasters of Vick/Petrino in one year.
We don't get too many of them (good, rational Saint fans) visiting here.
#19
st.all
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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:09 AM
in 2009 the Saints had to learn a new scheme and that went well. Lofton will be much stouter than Vilma has been. and remember we brought in Chamberlain who has played under Spags so we will have a player onfield who can help with adjustments. Spags should be able to get the d-line working better. Romeus is healthy and Galete is waiting to be utilized, when Junior played he had impact.
#20
youngbloodz
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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:12 AM
Lofton will be more stout against the run than Vilma. But not in coverage. He doesn't have the hips to be a good coverage LB
