33 replies to this topic

[SwampyMux12]

http://bleacherrepor...-in-nfl-history

Fun read if you have some time, especially if you remember a lot of these guys coming out.  Just goes to show how much of a crapshoot the NFL draft can be!  I remember so many of these guys being "sure things" and look what happened...  Couple of Falcons on there as well, Bruce Pickens being one that stands out.  Think of how great our secondary could have been if he would have panned out - Deion on one side and Pickens on the other...

[muskokas finest ©]

Little harsh on Aaron Curry.  Only 3 years in the league, playing most every game.  I could find 50 more busts worse than that.

[Falconsfan567™]

Someone should make a list of just QB's. That's one of the reason I'm get so pissed when I see people say we need to trade Ryan and go after the next great QB. We could do a **** of a lot worst than Matt Ryan.

[muskokas finest ©]

falconsfan567, on 07 April 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

Someone should make a list of just QB's. That's one of the reason I'm get so pissed when I see people say we need to trade Ryan and go after the next great QB. We could do a **** of a lot worst than Matt Ryan.

And therein lies the problem many on this MB share.  Yes, we could do a lot worse, but that's the gambit you take on the road to the top.  Too many are happy to settle for racking up winning seasons.  Even Dimitroff seemed more interested last year in taking the big step, with his Julio Jones trade.  Now Thomas seems to be in protect-my-job mode.

[Falconsfan567™]

muskokas finest, on 07 April 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

And therein lies the problem many on this MB share.  Yes, we could do a lot worse, but that's the gambit you take on the road to the top.  Too many are happy to settle for racking up winning seasons.  Even Dimitroff seemed more interested last year in taking the big step, with his Julio Jones trade.  Now Thomas seems to be in protect-my-job mode.

Ok. Say we trade Matt Ryan and draft the next great lock and the next great lock turns out to be the next Ryan Leaf or Akili Smith. Then what do we have? We have at least 10 more years of ****. Your chances of getting the next Peyton Manning or Tom Brady is a whole less than they are in getting the next Leaf or Smith.

I'm not happy to settle just for winning seasons. I want the Falcons to win 1 Super Bowl and then many more but it's just too early to say after just 4 years that Matt Ryan is incapable of winning the Super Bowl. History is full of guys that took years to just to win a playoff game and then many more years to finally win the Super Bowl. You like to name guys like Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning and Aaron Rodgers as why Ryan won't win the Super Bowl but those guys are the exception not the rule.

[muskokas finest ©]

falconsfan567, on 07 April 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

Ok. Say we trade Matt Ryan and draft the next great lock and the next great lock turns out to be the next Ryan Leaf or Akili Smith. Then what do we have? We have at least 10 more years of ****. Your chances of getting the next Peyton Manning or Tom Brady is a whole less than they are in getting the next Leaf or Smith.

I'm not happy to settle just for winning seasons. I want the Falcons to win 1 Super Bowl and then many more but it's just too early to say after just 4 years that Matt Ryan is incapable of winning the Super Bowl. History is full of guys that took years to just to win a playoff game and then many more years to finally win the Super Bowl. You like to name guys like Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning and Aaron Rodgers as why Ryan won't win the Super Bowl but those guys are the exception not the rule.

It's a different time dude.  This is the era of the QB.  The QB we like to tag a "game manager" hasn't won a Super Bowl in 10 years.  Look at how much talent at the position has entered the league since Ryan's 2008 draft year.  Stafford, Sanchez, Freeman, Bradford, Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Kaepernick, Dalton with Luck, RG3 and Tannehill to come.  That's a pretty short span for more than 1/3 of the leagues teams to reboot at QB with a player they are high on.  Not even counting Tebow, Mallet, McCoy etc. all of whom are longer shots to develop.  What we haven't seen is the epic bust....not since Russell.

[Falconsfan567™]

muskokas finest, on 07 April 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

It's a different time dude.  This is the era of the QB.  The QB we like to tag a "game manager" hasn't won a Super Bowl in 10 years.  Look at how much talent at the position has entered the league since Ryan's 2008 draft year.  Stafford, Sanchez, Freeman, Bradford, Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Kaepernick, Dalton with Luck, RG3 and Tannehill to come.  That's a pretty short span for more than 1/3 of the leagues teams to reboot at QB with a player they are high on.  Not even counting Tebow, Mallet, McCoy etc. all of whom are longer shots to develop.  What we haven't seen is the epic bust....not since Russell.

It's still too early to judge a lot of those guys you just named.

[muskokas finest ©]

falconsfan567, on 07 April 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

It's still too early to judge a lot of those guys you just named.

It is.  Point being the opportunity to make a change, is so desired, readily exists.  Broncos started the off season with questions about Tebow, now go into the year with Peyton Manning at the helm.

[Falconsfan567™]

muskokas finest, on 07 April 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

It is.  Point being the opportunity to make a change, is so desired, readily exists.  Broncos started the off season with questions about Tebow, now go into the year with Peyton Manning at the helm.

And Peyton Manning doesn't have questions? He's one wrong hit away from being in a wheel chair for the rest of his life. Of course you could say that for any player but not every player is 36 years old and coming off 4 neck surgeries in less than a year's time.

So say the Falcons had gone and signed Peyton Manning and traded Matt Ryan and won the Super Bowl with Manning and then Manning retires and we're left with no QB for the foreseeable future. Would you love to go back to what the Falcons had to deal with before where we had a new starting QB every 3 or 4 years because we couldn't find one good enough to build around?

It just wasn't worth it for the Falcons to go after Peyton.

[muskokas finest ©]

falconsfan567, on 07 April 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

And Peyton Manning doesn't have questions? He's one wrong hit away from being in a wheel chair for the rest of his life. Of course you could say that for any player but not every player is 36 years old and coming off 4 neck surgeries in less than a year's time.

So say the Falcons had gone and signed Peyton Manning and traded Matt Ryan and won the Super Bowl with Manning and then Manning retires and we're left with no QB for the foreseeable future. Would you love to go back to what the Falcons had to deal with before where we had a new starting QB every 3 or 4 years because we couldn't find one good enough to build around?

It just wasn't worth it for the Falcons to go after Peyton.

Depends on the medical reports for Peyton.  If doctors think Peyton had 3-4 years left in him, why not take a shot.  Presumably, you could parlay Ryan into some O-line help and a young QB prospect.  You wouldn't make a move like that unless you had a situation in mind for Matt Ryan.

[SwampyMux12]

muskokas finest, on 07 April 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

It's a different time dude.  This is the era of the QB.  The QB we like to tag a "game manager" hasn't won a Super Bowl in 10 years.  Look at how much talent at the position has entered the league since Ryan's 2008 draft year.  Stafford, Sanchez, Freeman, Bradford, Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Kaepernick, Dalton with Luck, RG3 and Tannehill to come.  That's a pretty short span for more than 1/3 of the leagues teams to reboot at QB with a player they are high on.  Not even counting Tebow, Mallet, McCoy etc. all of whom are longer shots to develop.  What we haven't seen is the epic bust....not since Russell.

I see where you're coming from when you talk about a QB needing to be a playmaker in this day and age; and the benchmark for a quarterback is being able to win in the playoffs and ultimately the Super Bowl.  Yet of your list of quarterbacks who are more talented than Ryan (?), there is only two who have taken their team to the playoffs and only one who has won...  and Sanchez winning playoff games is pretty much equal to Trent Dilfer winning playoff games (with that Defense the Jets should have at the very least gotten to a SB).  We would never in a million years have dreamed of bringing in Tebow to compete with Ryan.  Other than Stafford and Newton (who are amazing once in a decade type talents), there are a lot of question marks about all those guys... heck there were rumors of the Rams possibly taking a QB w/the second pick early in the offseason.

Granted, Ryan has some flaws to his game (he really needs to start anticipating and throwing guys open a lot more often, too many of his passes are catch w/your back to the defender type passes rather than catch and run) but he has brought a stability that we have never seen around here to the quarterback position.  I think the biggest reason for so many people questioning him is that he was so good his first year and though he has been gradually getting better, he hasn't made that "huge" jump or had that signature game yet.  We tend to forget that he is only entering his fifth season in the league... Manning didn't win a Super Bowl until his 9th year in the NFL, Elway until his 15th, Steve Young in his 8th.  Ryan has the tools to win in this league, but no one can do it alone, you need a complete team to win a SB in this league and our O line and defense need to get better, Ryan needs to get better, and the WR's need to get more consistent.  We're better in the coaching department, so we'll see what happens this year.

Edited by SwampyMux12, 07 April 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[Falconsfan567™]

SwampyMux12, on 07 April 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

I see where you're coming from when you talk about a QB needing to be a playmaker in this day and age; and the benchmark for a quarterback is being able to win in the playoffs and ultimately the Super Bowl.  Yet of your list of quarterbacks who are more talented than Ryan (?), there is only two who have taken their team to the playoffs and only one who has won...  and Sanchez winning playoff games is pretty much equal to Trent Dilfer winning playoff games (with that Defense the Jets should have at the very least gotten to a SB).  We would never in a million years have dreamed of bringing in Tebow to compete with Ryan.  Other than Stafford and Newton (who are amazing once in a decade type talents), there are a lot of question marks about all those guys... heck there were rumors of the Rams possibly taking a QB w/the second pick early in the offseason.

Granted, Ryan has some flaws to his game (he really needs to start anticipating and throwing guys open a lot more often, too many of his passes are catch w/your back to the defender type passes rather than catch and run) but he has brought a stability that we have never seen around here to the quarterback position.  I think the biggest reason for so many people questioning him is that he was so good his first year and though he has been gradually getting better, he hasn't made that "huge" jump or had that signature game yet.  We tend to forget that he is only entering his fifth season in the league... Manning didn't win a Super Bowl until his 9th year in the NFL, Elway until his 15th, Steve Young in his 8th.  Ryan has the tools to win in this league, but no one can do it alone, you need a complete team to win a SB in this league and our O line and defense need to get better, Ryan needs to get better, and the WR's need to get more consistent.  We're better in the coaching department, so we'll see what happens this year.

But it doesn't matter how long it took those guys to finally win the Super Bowl. Ryan should already have won the Super Bowl because guys like Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning and Aaron Rodgers have already won rings.

[muskokas finest ©]

SwampyMux12, on 07 April 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

I see where you're coming from when you talk about a QB needing to be a playmaker in this day and age; and the benchmark for a quarterback is being able to win in the playoffs and ultimately the Super Bowl.  Yet of your list of quarterbacks who are more talented than Ryan (?), there is only two who have taken their team to the playoffs and only one who has won...  and Sanchez winning playoff games is pretty much equal to Trent Dilfer winning playoff games (with that Defense the Jets should have at the very least gotten to a SB).  We would never in a million years have dreamed of bringing in Tebow to compete with Ryan.  Other than Stafford and Newton (who are amazing once in a decade type talents), there are a lot of question marks about all those guys... heck there were rumors of the Rams possibly taking a QB w/the second pick early in the offseason.

Granted, Ryan has some flaws to his game (he really needs to start anticipating and throwing guys open a lot more often, too many of his passes are catch w/your back to the defender type passes rather than catch and run) but he has brought a stability that we have never seen around here to the quarterback position.  I think the biggest reason for so many people questioning him is that he was so good his first year and though he has been gradually getting better, he hasn't made that "huge" jump or had that signature game yet.  We tend to forget that he is only entering his fifth season in the league... Manning didn't win a Super Bowl until his 9th year in the NFL, Elway until his 15th, Steve Young in his 8th.  Ryan has the tools to win in this league, but no one can do it alone, you need a complete team to win a SB in this league and our O line and defense need to get better, Ryan needs to get better, and the WR's need to get more consistent.  We're better in the coaching department, so we'll see what happens this year.

You've missed the point.  Everyone on that list was drafted after Ryan, illustrating the point that locking in on one QB with the idea that you won't have another chance at a quality signal caller is simply not the case in this day and age.

Stafford and Newton are not once in a decade talents, as Andrew Luck and RG3 will illustrate.  The Giants just finished proving, like the Packers before them, that you don't need a complete team when you have a hot QB.  Big Ben, Aaron and Eli have also shown that you don't have to be a 10 year veteran to win the big prize.

[SwampyMux12]

muskokas finest, on 07 April 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

You've missed the point.  Everyone on that list was drafted after Ryan, illustrating the point that locking in on one QB with the idea that you won't have another chance at a quality signal caller is simply not the case in this day and age.

Stafford and Newton are not once in a decade talents, as Andrew Luck and RG3 will illustrate.  The Giants just finished proving, like the Packers before them, that you don't need a complete team when you have a hot QB.  Big Ben, Aaron and Eli have also shown that you don't have to be a 10 year veteran to win the big prize.

From a purely physical standpoint, Stafford and Newton are unbeleivable...  but I digress, I guess we can agree to disagree .

It's good to be able to lock into a quarterback, if you're picking a new QB every year that means that your team sucks and you aren't going to have the chance to get the hot QB in the playoffs anyway.  I'll agree you don't need a complete team, but both those teams had more than a "hot QB" as you say.  The Packers defense was creating turnovers like crazy at the end of the season (ARod was hardly stellar in the NFC championship vs the Bears) and the Giants ST created 2 TOs vs the 49ers or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.  Also, both those teams had 2 things the Falcons have not been able to find late in the year... consistent O Line play and a stellar pass rush.  Those teams both got "hot" all around, not just at the QB position.

[muskokas finest ©]

SwampyMux12, on 08 April 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

From a purely physical standpoint, Stafford and Newton are unbeleivable...  but I digress, I guess we can agree to disagree .

It's good to be able to lock into a quarterback, if you're picking a new QB every year that means that your team sucks and you aren't going to have the chance to get the hot QB in the playoffs anyway.  I'll agree you don't need a complete team, but both those teams had more than a "hot QB" as you say.  The Packers defense was creating turnovers like crazy at the end of the season (ARod was hardly stellar in the NFC championship vs the Bears) and the Giants ST created 2 TOs vs the 49ers or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.  Also, both those teams had 2 things the Falcons have not been able to find late in the year... consistent O Line play and a stellar pass rush.  Those teams both got "hot" all around, not just at the QB position.

Luck and RG3 are both amazing from a purely physical standpoint too.

Being able to lock into a QB for the long term is a luxury.  Being locked into a QB who isn't progressing can impact the whole franchise.  Leaving aside our situation for the time being, look at Dallas.  They have talent at RB/WR/TE, all trying to get the most out of QB and that's forced them to make some uncomfortable decisions with the O-line and on defense.  Do they hold onto Romo until the bitter end, or try and get some value out of him and reboot with the good base talent already being in place

Giants don't go very far if Eli doesn't get boiling hot in the playoffs, same with the Packers and the reason they're creating turnovers is because the offense is putting so much pressure on their counterparts, forcing them to take risks to keep up.

[Falconsfan567™]

muskokas finest, on 08 April 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

Luck and RG3 are both amazing from a purely physical standpoint too.

Being able to lock into a QB for the long term is a luxury.  Being locked into a QB who isn't progressing can impact the whole franchise.  Leaving aside our situation for the time being, look at Dallas.  They have talent at RB/WR/TE, all trying to get the most out of QB and that's forced them to make some uncomfortable decisions with the O-line and on defense.  Do they hold onto Romo until the bitter end, or try and get some value out of him and reboot with the good base talent already being in place

Giants don't go very far if Eli doesn't get boiling hot in the playoffs, same with the Packers and the reason they're creating turnovers is because the offense is putting so much pressure on their counterparts, forcing them to take risks to keep up.

I don't understand the (I can't find the right word) about Tony Romo. His numbers are off the charts. He had 31 touchdowns and only 10 interceptions last season with a completion percentage of nearly 67%. That right there tells me Romo wasn't the reason the Cowboys didn't make the playoffs last season. Romo has 149 touchdown passes and only 72 interceptions.

Romo's stats in the playoffs isn't bad either. They're not great but far from awful. Much better than Ryan's and the Cowboys did win a playoff game in 2009. I don't know. I guess people see Romo doing the golf stuff or other things and think it takes away from his football. I don't know.

[muskokas finest ©]

falconsfan567, on 08 April 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

I don't understand the (I can't find the right word) about Tony Romo. His numbers are off the charts. He had 31 touchdowns and only 10 interceptions last season with a completion percentage of nearly 67%. That right there tells me Romo wasn't the reason the Cowboys didn't make the playoffs last season. Romo has 149 touchdown passes and only 72 interceptions.

Romo's stats in the playoffs isn't bad either. They're not great but far from awful. Much better than Ryan's and the Cowboys did win a playoff game in 2009. I don't know. I guess people see Romo doing the golf stuff or other things and think it takes away from his football. I don't know.

Romo has had some issues with durability over the years.  Also, while he is consistent for the most part, Tony doesn't show those periods of dominance you associate with top QBs

[Truthhurts]

One word for all the "Ryan can't win a Super Bowl" crowd...Johnson!

[Falconsfan567™]

Truthhurts, on 12 April 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

One word for all the "Ryan can't win a Super Bowl" crowd...Johnson!

Dilfer!

[SkiFalcon]

Everyone here was whining for Amobe Okoye too..   LOL